Saturday, November 21, 2015

"They are essentially parasites"


     I try to answer readers when they write. First, because it's the polite thing to do. Second, because it draws them into my oeuvre, creates loyalty, and encourages them to keep reading and third, and probably most important, in replying I form thoughts and turns of phrase that prove useful later on.
     I thought Mr. Gray's email, below, received Friday, presented a common enough perception that it is worth sharing. I'm not sure how completely I refuted him -- I know you can find examples I overlooked -- though I was pleased enough with it that I thought I'd repost it here.


Dear Mr. Steinberg:
     It is gratifying to know that we have some citizens, like yourself, who are idealistic, caring, & compassionate even though some of us think those attributes are misguided.
     Please don't equate the Muslims with the Jewish segments of society. Although Jews have endured harsh antisemitism, they continued contributing to society wherever they settled. 

     My uncles, George & Issac Adler, never accepted hand-outs or government largess. They, and their forefathers, were contributors & their values and culture were synonymous with those of society.
     Enlighten me if you will. Can you identify any Muslim contributions to the Arts, Literature, Humanities, or Science. Be they Syrians, Egyptians, Palestinians, etc., in my opinion, they are essentially parasites who would have us living in tents or log cabins and stoning or decapitating violators of the Koran.
    Historically the Muslims have exhibited enmity towards non-Muslims. They slaughtered Essenes at  Hebron (Tarpat) and more recently Coptic Christians. Muhammad himself would declare a truce when losing a battle only to rearm and restart the conflict. Consider that so-called exemplary Muslim, the devious Yasser Arafat who wore his gun to the Nobel ceremony. Their are countless examples of Muslim hypocrisy and heinous behavior but let me end this diatribe by saying, "Just as their is no peace in the Middle East, their will be no peace in America when Muslims become a dominant part of our society."
     Of course, this problem could be resolved if what that pompous and pedantic buffoon, Bernie Sanders predicts: Solving and eliminating global warming will conquer the growth of terrorism.


Sincerely, Eugene D. Gray

And my reply:

Dear Mr. Gray:

     Sure. Enlightenment is my business. Well the Arts are easy enough—all you have to do is step into the Art Institute to see the exquisite calligraphy and illustration the Islamic world has created. Here is a link to the new gallery for Islamic art the museum has opened. 

     Literature, well, where to start? As a Dante fan, I know that Dante based a good part of his Inferno on Islamic eschatology. I assume you dismiss the old-school, 1001 Arabian Nights-type works, but you can't underestimate their influence on Western literature. The contemporary scene of course is rich -- I'm a particular fan of the Egyptian writer Andre Aciman*; I'd recommend his "Out of Egypt" if you are looking for a place to start. 
     I'm not sure what you mean by "Humanities" -- there is the organization CAIR, the Council on American Islamic Relations, which works to combat the kind of ill-informed bigotry reflected in your email. But bigger picture, there is the Judeo-Christian tradition, which came entirely out of the Middle East. Not to forget Islam itself, which has 1.2 billion adherents who use it to live ethical lives and understand their world, the overwhelming majority of whom do not exhibit the kind of behavior you would use to indict them all. As for Science, well, there's algebra, itself an Arabic word, al jabr and other mathematical inventions—not recent, true, but of such supreme importance; they gave us our numerical system itself, remember, "Arabic numbers" —that we can give a pass to their recent retreat from the world's technological stage. Plus music, fashion, and don't forget food. 
     I imagine that none of these facts will change your thinking one iota, since you clearly seem to be a person who is not sifting facts and drawing conclusions, but rather have drawn your conclusions and are cherry-picking facts to back them up. But remember, it isn't because the reality is not out there, but because you refuse to see it, for reasons which I could hazard a guess at, but won't.
     Still, thanks for asking. I certainly benefited from answering your question; whether you will benefit too, well, that's your business.

NS

* I don't know why I didn't think of this writing my reply, but Andre Aciman is Jewish; I knew that, having read the book, but I thought of him as Egyptian, a mistake the Egyptians perhaps would not make. Had I given this more thought, I'd have picked Naguib Mahfouz, the Egyptian existential novelist who most certainly is Muslim and who won the Nobel Prize in literature in 2008, one of those small details that escaped Mr. Gray's attention. And no, Gray did not reply. I find that these people, when confronted, just hurry on, eager to find shiny surfaces that better reflect their fixed ideas.

64 comments:

  1. Mr S, why do you think it was so hard for you to come up with examples? And still is? You were challenged to name Muslim contributors to arts, sciences, literature and humanities, and in your smug "refutation" you came up with a grand total of one name (who is, hilariously, a Jew!) Regarding your reference to CAIR, if you were asked to name Jewish contributors to the humanities, would you really be reduced to naming the Anti Defamation League? Let's not forget that the Muslim population base is literally 100 times that of the Jews. Not only did you not refute Mr Gray, you inadvertently showed how correct he was.

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    1. I'm not saying that the faith has not sunk into retrograde, it has. But it is also 500 years younger than the Judeo-Christian tradition. I'm sure, in 500 years, they'll have joined the modern world -- that's what this terror business is all about, the complaint of the sag end of the faith as it's dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century -- and this will all be another ugly bit of history.

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  2. You speak very confidently, Clark St. But who do you know what "Muslims insist"? Nor do we treat other groups of people based on how many Nobel Prizes their ancestors won. Every bigot in the world has a complicated rational for feeling the way they do. I would be uncomfortable to find myself among them. Are you? See, guessing what others believe is a fraught act.

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  3. Mr S, you asked Mr Gray, "where to start?" We now know. 500 years from now.
    You owe him an apology.

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    1. That's just silly. His entire premise is wrong. i could just as easily, and just as accurately, say that the contributions of women to technology and the arts lag far behind those of men and so they shouldn't vote. It's just rationalizing bigotry through rough generalization. My older boy's 7th grade math teacher was a Muslim woman in full niqab.

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    2. No, saying women can't vote because their tech. is behind isn't the same because women for so many years weren't allowed or encouraged to go into certain fields, colleges or classes and were discriminated against. One can guess your Mrs. would agree with this statement.

      And why don't the Muslim defenders here, not just the host, say more about how their women are treated these days????? Even the non terrorist ones.

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  4. Mr. Gray has a point. Same with Clark. It may not be a matter of bigotry, NS, as much as saying something like- Germans are known for better engineering than the French are.

    In early times,as we know, medicine- whether from Muslims or Jews, was more advanced in the Middle East than it was in Europe.

    Do agree, Neil, that you are good about writing back to readers. Same with Mr. Fountain at the ST and Telander in sports. Sneed and Mitchell or Morrissey: not so much.

    Agree or not, you always provide food for thought that leads to good discussion.

    Glad that this wasn't just about mosaic tile, which is what it appeared to be at first.

    Please don't feel it's your job to always be defending Muslims. Remember some of them would automatically hate you on the spot.

    Just like you said yesterday that some blacks have to look at their role in the matters so do some Muslims.

    Thank goodness for Charlemagne or Europe would have a different history. Look how southeastern Europe suffered for certain reasons.

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    1. Excellent column to begin contemplation. Enough said by NS & commenters that I shan't add to the outrage & "yeah, what about"s. Only to Mrs.: My Czech ancestors do not say thank goodness for Charlemagne.

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    2. Well the Russians in the fairly recent, modern day were a lot worse to your folks.

      And don't forget those Austro-Hungarians.

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    3. Viewed for myself the Russians, didn't forget the Austro-Hungarians ("Magyar" was uttered almost like a curse word by my maternal grandmother); just responding to the comment thanking the one who started the hegemony. Lots of that to go around.

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    4. I had a marvelous Magyar Hungarian Professor in under grad.He made sure that Euro History wasn't just the study of GB, France, Germany and Russia. He was in the Hungarian uprising of the late 50's and told us horror stories. He was lucky to be alive. He was stern but interesting and introduced us to Ayn Rand's "We the Living."

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  5. Tate, Let's remember if it wasn't for the crusades, Ottoman Muslims would have spread into Europe even more so. Turk or other Muslims weren't exactly known to be sweet or right either. They wanted to spread out as well- Ask Vlad for starters.

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  6. Perhaps Gray didn't reply for the same reasons you don't after one disputes you the 2nd time in an email or here-he figures, what's the use.

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  7. Isnt Nobel prize winner Orhan Pamuk also a Muslim? ( this from a 2 second google search). I akso know and like a number of people who are Muslim.I recall how badly I felt for a hardworking 2nd generation American taxi driver who a week after 9/11 told me how badly he and his family were being treated. Any blanket sratement about any religious group is just plain stupid. The KKK purports to work out of Christian values. Should I think all Christians are violant bigots?

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  8. The oil tankers belonging to ISIS must be destroyed -their funding is coming from there.

    Too many apologists for certain Muslims around here.

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  9. Not likely, Tate. No Jihads here.

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    1. Not all the refugees are widows, kids or married, family men.

      Supposedly, 79% of the refugees are men. Even if most are fine, all you need is a handful...

      Having said that, I hate how the right blames this President for all the problems in the Middle East.

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  10. I find it interesting when people feel the need to come up with a laundry list justifying their bigotry. And how very offended they are if you compare the objects of their hate with other segments of humanity, including themselves. "They're all parasites. They contribute nothing. They don't deserve our respect or the right to live among us!" This isn't much different than what ISIS is communicating with their actions, in my opinion.

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    1. Very true. I've long said that haters have more in common with each other than their own communities. The McCarthyites were aping the Soviets they supposedly opposed, calling for loyalty oaths and such. ISIS asks hostages to recite the Koran if they want to be freed, and Trump agrees that faith-based monitoring is a good idea.

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    2. Well even the paranoid McCarthyites didn't ship anyone off to Siberia after torturing them.

      Luckily, I don't think anyone on this blog supports Trump, he's not worthy of consideration.

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  11. Yes, Gray is out of line in that respect. Not all Muslims are like that but for our safety these days, due to some bad apples and no way to vet properly, we can't let so many refugees in.

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  12. Gee Neil, Muslims do insist that the koran is perfect, because god dictated it to muhammed & both of them are perfect!

    Here's the current view on slavery in Saudi Arabia, via Wikipedia:
    "Saudi jurist, Shaykh Saleh Al-Fawzan, issued fatwa claiming “Slavery is a part of Islam. Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam.” He attacked Muslim scholars who said otherwise maintaining they were "infidels" and “ignorant, not scholars.” At the time of the fatwa, al-Fawzan was a member of the Senior Council of Clerics, Saudi Arabia’s highest religious body, a member of the Council of Religious Edicts and Research, the Imam of Prince Mitaeb Mosque in Riyadh, and a professor at Imam Mohamed Bin Saud Islamic University, the main Wahhabi center of learning in the country.

    According to multiple sources, religious calls have also been made to capture and enslave Jewish women. As American journalist John J. Miller said, "It is hard to imagine a serious person calling for America to enslave its enemies. Yet a prominent Saudi cleric, Shaikh Saad Al-Buraik, recently urged Palestinians to do exactly that with Jews: 'Their women are yours to take, legitimately. God made them yours. Why don't you enslave their women?'"

    Saying islam is in a retrograde is mild, it's been that way for 900 years & will be that way for 900 more!

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  13. 3 cheers for you, Clark.

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  14. http://www.factcheck.org/2015/09/stretching-facts-on-syrian-refugees/

    http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/regional.php

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    1. It does require a certain level of sophistication to evaluate the credibility of a source. A level not needed to toss off unsupported hearsay.

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    2. Of course, one can't just believe any source and if one did grad level research they'd know that. But bearing that in mind, one can find IF willing, good sources on both sides of the political coin. If one doesn't have the link at hand, it doesn't mean it's always hearsay.

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    3. Not everyone can be as smart, sophisticated, non -narcissistic, non- arrogant & not full of themselves as C of course.

      Moi enjoys them cat fights here. HA!

      JP

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  15. A piece explaining why rebuffing the refugees is playing right into ISIS' hands and why accepting them would be "devastating" to them. FWIW.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/the-strategic-value-of-compassion-welcoming-refugees-is-devastating-to-is/article27373931/

    It seems to me that the people who are HAPPY living with the values promoted by ISIS and fundamentalist Islam and who WANT to live an 8th or 12th-century lifestyle stay home. It's the ones who have already come here and are seeking to come here who evidently reject the version of Islam that everybody is complaining about, and who value education, for instance. The ones coming to the West, by and large, obviously don't consider us to be the devil.

    Given the attitude in the letter and of several folks posting here, perhaps it's time to edit the famous poem. How's about "Give me your tired, your poor, your Nobel Prize winners yearning to breathe free. Keep the wretched refuse of your teeming shore, though, just send me the cream of the crop!"

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    1. Some ISIS members don't always stay home.

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  16. Omar Khayyam, Charlie Parker, Salman Rushdie, Cat Stevens, they all contributed to the arts.

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    1. Charlie Parker? The jazz artist? Yes, knew of Stevens conversion. Rushdie indeed, look how he was threatened by fanatics.

      Interesting tidbit, via the Lyons column today in the ST, on Graeme Wood writing for the Atlantic monthly- mentioning how some in the group that we debate on, lived for the bloodbath...of course that can apply to other groups, but as Lyons writes, you can't make treaties with such people... though he isn't against accepting the refugees per se.

      AG

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    2. As previously mentioned, anyone can find a link to support their point of view on the internet, one way or the other. It doesn't give the full picture.

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    3. So, the overheated, anonymous opinions expressed here are just as worthwhile as those expressed by somebody whose career involves researching jihadist financing? Ain't that America? I'm sure Trump would agree with you, though.

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    4. that's not what was said, don't read into things

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  17. As if we don't have prominent Christian leaders here who believe that the Bible is perfect, and who want this to be an explicitly Christian nation. We're SO progressive here -- why, people stopped using the Bible to defend slavery here over a hundred and fifty years ago -- when they were forced to. Woo-hoo for us! And, gee, most stopped using it to attempt to maintain segregation about 50 years ago! Awesome! Some still haven't, though, alas. Anyway, it's not like our record when it comes to using a holy book to further repellent views is something to brag about. "Homosexuality is an abomination!", anybody?

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  18. Since there are more Muslims who are NOT following the Qu'ran to the letter than who are, that tells me that many -- dare I say, even most -- do NOT believe it's a "perfect book." And were it not for people pointing out how ridiculous and flawed the Abrahamic bibles are, please don't kid yourself into believing Christians and Jews wouldn't also consider theirs "the perfect word." Many still do, in fact, and would most certainly rape, kill and enslave if they could get away with it.

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  19. Since there are more Muslims who are NOT following the Qu'ran to the letter than who are, that tells me that many -- dare I say, even most -- do NOT believe it's a "perfect book." And were it not for people pointing out how ridiculous and flawed the Abrahamic bibles are, please don't kid yourself into believing Christians and Jews wouldn't also consider theirs "the perfect word." Many still do, in fact, and would most certainly rape, kill and enslave if they could get away with it.

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  20. Mohammad Abdus Salam won a Noble prize in 1979 for his work in theoretical physics.

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  21. Let's not forget that the majority of what have of ancient Greek/Latin writers were preserved by early medieval Arabic scholars.

    This mope's argument is the old fashioned Logic of Prejudice in action. Anyone who's a member of a dominant group is always an individual; anyone from a marginal group always represents the entire group. So Timothy McVeigh is just a bad individual person, not a representative of all white men, or Christians, or Americans. But any one Muslim terrorist represents his or her entire religion. This logic applies across all categories.

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  22. It seems there are more fundamentalist Muslims who don't question the Koran then Christians and those fund. Christians certainly aren't as dangerous these days.

    But other than Mr. Gray, no one here is saying all Muslims are bad but we must be wary who comes in as a refugee since there is no way to be sure, to say nothing of the expense of housing, feeding, giving aide to. etc

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  23. An 18-month vetting process seems pretty wary to me. Not foolproof, of course, but more than all-American gunmen shooting up elementary schools, high schools and movie theaters ever received...

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  24. Much of this 'my religion is better than your religion' stuff is, or should be, beside the point. As a person of Protestant Christian heritage who is about as devout as was Thomas Jefferson -- that is to say not very -- I find little to admire and much to deplore in Islam. I certainly wouldn't want to live in a land whose leaders take their marching orders from an Imam. Or a pastor, priest or rabbi for that matter. But concerning the present state of the world I'm inclined to think my former international relations professor, whose works some of you are familiar with, would find pertinent something Sr. Machiavelli wrote in the 16th Century: "A wise prince will seek the most advantageous alliance, even if it means siding with a lesser against a greater enemy." We don't like communists, but didn't have to embrace that secular religion when we made common cause with Uncle Joe Stalin against a more malignant threat.

    It's pertinent because, as Neil has usefully pointed out, there are 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet, and many of them occupy lands rich in resources we need to keep our economic engine ticking along. If we were to make enemies of them all we would be in big trouble, but there is no need to do so because most of them live in countries whose leaders are more threatened by the Jihadists than are we. And, if not militarily, they might in the long run be more helpful in mitigating the threat because they are better equipped than we to convince their coreligionists that wholesale murder is not Islamic.

    The practical problem with Muslim-bashing is the one President Obama, and before him Bush, have cited in more diplomatic language: it is stupid to piss off people whose help you might need, and it plays into the hands of the enemy. The moral problem is that general condemnation of a category of people often leads to the abuse of innocents. Looking back on the ISIS era historians might see similarities to the anarchist threat that caused great public anxiety in the first quarter of the last century. The treat was real enough, but the manner in which it was exaggerated in the public mind lead to what was latter deemed the unjustified execution of two Italian immigrants, Nicola Sacco and Bartolome Vanzetti.

    Tom Evans

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  25. It's nice of you to bother answering that ignorant e-mail.

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    1. This place usually isn't so hopping on a Sat.

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    2. Anon 3:02 -- Maybe because a lot of us (in the Chicago area anyway) are stuck at home watching 6-12 inches of snow falling down on us :)

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    3. Luckily in the far SW suburbs it wasn't so bad.

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    4. It's the topic too, not just the weather, that has more posting.

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  26. Well put, Tom. And I like your references to Machiavelli.

    And of course as far as anarchists go, look who was wrongfully blamed for the Haymarket riot.

    Those Deists like Jefferson were wise indeed.

    They could use you in the State Dept., past and present.

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  27. One of those two in the Sacco and V. trial was guilty or there was proof. No one should be given a pass.

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    1. Anyone who falls for the Koran is a book line about peace and anti violence, hasn't looked at it.

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  28. Joe Mccarthy is an American hero by the way. I heard his name a few posts back. Mccarthyism is simply calling people out that were attending Communist meetings and were secretly Communists. There's a book called "A peoples history of the United States". It was written by Howard Zinn a flaming liberal. Guess what he was a Communist through and through in the mid 40s when Stalin was still on a killing binge. And Zinn was a rockstar on campus revered by higher education. His book the people's history of the Unites States, mandatory reading in a lot of High Schools. Scary stuff.

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    1. The public stopped regarding McCarthy as an American hero when he couldn't honestly a question put to him by Joseph Welch. "Have you no shame senator?"

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  29. Jakash - Your comment at 11:47 AM in response to Clark St.'s comments somewhat surprised me, not only because the conversation has started veering off course into Islamic slavery and the Qu'ran vs. the Bible, but because it's the type of response that's usually not given much weight (like a far right-leaning Republican responding to a criticism by saying "But the liberals do it all the time."). Just MHO of course.

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  30. To anon at 3:19/ Yes, some of those people accused were dangerous Commies that were busy with espionage but small in number and that can't justify how many others were ruined with the witchhunts. Ike didn't care for McC either but he was hardly a flaming liberal.

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  31. Well, then, I'm sorry to have disappointed you, Sandy. It's a common theme of the anti-Muslim folks in this country that the Muslims, as a group, actually believe all the less-than-PC aspects of the Koran, while the enlightened Christians in the West have left the less-savory aspects of the Bible behind. Especially given Neil's reference to the Muslim religion being significantly younger than both Christianity and, particularly, Judaism, I thought it was worthwhile to point out that the modern American attitude toward outrageous stuff in the Bible is a relatively recent development. And that it's not like the memo has been received by all the Christians in this country even now.

    Also, sadly, sometimes when Republicans say "liberals do it all the time", they're right. Did you feel, as our 11:13 anonymous buddy did, that Clark St. made a good point at 11:10, which didn't warrant rebuttal? I'd be delighted to read your more topical, measured and appropriate response, if not. : )

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  32. To Anon 4:09 How could Senator McCarthy ruin a reputation. If you or me were called before a Senate committee and asked if we were communists tjere there would be no evidence. I never attend communist meetings, I dont read their newspapers and I don't associate with Comunists. McCarthy had hard evidence of many people in powerful positions in academia and Hollywood where minds are molded that were in fact communists! That part of history is always whitewashed and people are left with the opinion that McCarthy made it up or falsely accused people of being communsts. Thats a lie!

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  33. Ha, okay then, I surrender. Don't mean to be overly critical, Jak. Maybe it's the snow and I'm crabby and hungry right now. I didn't agree with Clark's comments either. But any rebuttals you make are certainly worth considering and more thoughtfully conveyed than I could hope to replicate :)

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  34. OH come on. Some of the people he went after got in trouble for having lunch with some "pinko". He was feeding his ego and looking for attention. No wonder the Senate censured him or were they all commies? No one is saying he was always wrong. The TV showed what a bully he was. And where was the evidence that the State dept was loaded with commies, as he claimed. Your writer just wanted to sell a book.

    He' d have had a hard time bringing me up on charges as to the fact that I wasn't born when he was busy.

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    1. I agree there are some history texts that go too far left in revisionism, but your author and McC and you seemed to go to the other extreme.

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  35. No, that was an overblown response to you on my part, Sandy. No need to surrender, certainly. I guess I was just surprised by the criticism, especially from somebody who I've always gotten along with. A better reply on my part would probably have been that, while I try to take this stuff as seriously as is warranted, occasionally it's fun to shoot from the hip in some of these comments, which is pretty much what I was doing at 11:47. : )

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  36. "... to say nothing of the expense of housing, feeding, giving aide to. etc"

    A huge proportion of the current refugee crisis can be laid at America's feet. Between the disastrous invasion of Iraq that gave birth to ISIS, to the drone program, to over 2000 bombing raids in Syria, the US has turned the region from very bad, to an unimaginable hell.

    If you don't have the money to help the people your policies have devastated, maybe you should stop spending so much money on bombs.

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  37. Sanders said global warming is acerbating terrorism, which it is, but never said it was the cause of it nor did he say anything about eliminating the coming warming because it's too late for that. We can only make that worse by believing and acting upon big oil's successful propaganda campaign.

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  38. Thanks for this column, Neil (did you ever write for the daily journal out in dupage county?). One of my favorite musicians, and one of the reasons I continue to play guitar, is a british convert to islam by the name of Richard Thompson.

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    1. The Wheaton Daily Journal? Yes I did, in the mid-1980s.

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