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| Street protest, 2014 |
There was a lot of reaction to Monday's column. Most of it positive, from people glad to see that attitude in the newspaper. But there was one puzzled response. I'm sharing it because it reflects a common attitude:
Yes, another comment on today's column regarding the murders on Bondi Beach.
No one deserves to die this way. Or, to die because some other doesn't agree with them.
Not being Jewish, I perhaps will never understand why the debacle in Gaza as a response to October 7th was necessary. I also most likely will never understand why Israel insists on treating Palestinians living there and in the West Bank the way they do. I will never understand why Israel feels a constant need to defend itself, and, in the process, create an excess of hate among those outside who see that said "defense" as genocide, It's almost as if constant war and fighting is the lifeblood of Israel. And cruelty to people with impunity is somehow fair. Why is it that a Jewish life is worth more than a Palestinian one?
You wrote, "once you view them not as individuals, but as faceless members of groups, you're capable of anything." And so, it is. Deaths due to genocide are not worse because of the ethnicity of the victims. Or even the number.
I read the book "Being Jewish After the Destruction of Gaza", by Peter Bienart. You are probably familiar with it. It outlines the historical sins of the Jewish people, who are hardly a non-violent population. I ended up with more understanding of the history, but I still do not have a good answer to why it can't stop itself from continuing its' poor treatment of others. Is there no forgiveness to be had ever? Will the Palestinians ever be allowed to live in the small area of land that is supposed to be theirs without constant illegal encroachment by Israel?
I'm an outsider to all this. Make it make sense. Make it stop.
I wish you could explain to people like me. Just a person trying to live my life.
Barb O.
Cedar Lake, IN
A lot to unpack. But anything in particular stand out for you? It did for me. I replied:
I doubt I could explain it to you. "I will never understand why Israel feels a constant need to defend itself" seems to suggest that you can't even perceive that Israel is constantly being attacked. Or maybe just don't care. Maybe you should ask yourself why Palestinian suffering so moves you, while you can't even see Jewish suffering. I have an idea, but I'd rather you think about it. There might be some insight to be found there. Maybe not.NS
I was hoping perhaps to gain some insight into this issue from someone who surely has spent more than his share of time on it.
I can see from your response that you are too close to the issue. That is understandable.
You are incorrect that only Palestinian suffering moves me. I see it all over the world. Every day.
So, I guess there will be no peace there. The killing will continue.
I'm sorry.
NS
Thank you, Neal, for responding to the commentor in such a measured but clear way. Jew-hatred has long thrived among some on the far left and far right. As heartbreaking as that is, the stain seems to be spreading. We need more to stand up as you have.
ReplyDeleteBarb from Cedar Lake undoubtedly would've loved to have been a SS guard at a death camp in 1942!
ReplyDeleteShe is obviously a life long Jew hater, but won't come out & actually say that, so she couches her hate in a way not to sound like such the monster, that she actually is!
Although there are several points in Barb’s response that I disagree strongly with, to say that she “undoubtedly would’ve loved to an SS guard at a death camp in 1942” is completely uncalled for.
DeleteJerry L.
I'm glad you said that. I'm having a hard time lately differentiating when it's ok to call people monsters and compare them to Nazi death camp officers, and when it's not. Hate is just sounding like hate to me these days. If there was a "like" option, I would have given you one.
DeleteMy brother (may he rest in peace) would often say "There are none so blind as those who refuse to see". I believe the quote has its origin in the Book of Isiah.
ReplyDeleteMy grandmother's entire family was on intimate terms with SS guards in 1942. They sent her whole family, those who had not emigrated during WWI, up the chimney.
DeleteAccusing someone of anti-Semitism is one thing.
Comparing them to death camp guards is another thing entirely.
Mr. Street, that was more than a little over-the- top.
There are none so blind as those who can Nazi.
What Barb does not understand is that Israel's actions are *not* about retaliation or revenge. Israel's actions are about making sure that the enemy does not, cannot attack us again. It seems like, in Barb's world, Israel would keep turning the other cheek and the enemy would keep attacking Israel. In her world, October 7th 2023 would happen over and over and over again. In the real world, no country would allow this to happen. I have a feeling that, if Cedar Lake, IN was being attacked, her perspective would be very different.
ReplyDeleteExactly
DeleteThis is what happens when people are ignorant of history and toss around terms like "Zionism" carelessly. There would never have been an Israel or a need for Zionism (which, after all, is just the Jewish desire for homeland) if Jews had been allowed to live safely anywhere else. But they weren't – as the Holocaust demonstrated and as recent events in Australia demonstrate today. Perhaps the woman from Indiana might consider why it is Jews are unsafe anywhere, why it is non-Jews are so bent on Jewish destruction. She might also consider why the United States is entitled to defend it itself but in her view Israel, a sovereign nation, is not.
ReplyDeleteyup
DeleteClark, I think you've gone over a line in accusing Barb from Cedar Lake of attempting to conceal a lifelong antipathy to Jews in her correspondence with Neil. She may in fact be a deeply rooted antisemite, who would rejoice at Jewish deaths and the demise of Israel. But, as far as I can see, her letters don't prove it. I hope, Clark, that you don't relegate me also to the status of a monstrous Nazi guard at a 1942 death camp. I was only in this world for a little less than half of 1942 and never expressed or desired to express any hidden hatred then or thereafter.
ReplyDeletetate
I don't see your letter writer as a potential SS guard, but someone who was raised with the type of antisemitism I was raised in. As a teen-ager I confess I read Exodus which led to much more reading about the Holocaust, both fiction and nonfiction. When I asked my parents why the Jewish people, they were pretty uncomfortable. I have always been a strong supporter of Israel, one of the reasons being that Israel has an absolute right to defend itself. The Netanyhu government is a disgrace and the actions of many West Bank settlers are appalling, but as we labor under the burden of the piece of shit we elected, who are we to feel superior? Mr. Steinberg has been very clear that he is no fan of the horror of the reprisals in Gaza and that we should be able to hold 2 ideas in our heads at the same time. Another example. 2 radicalized Muslims went on a murderous rampage at a Jewish celebration. One man, a Muslim man, bravely tackled one of the shooters and brought the shooter down, saving many lives.The last report I saw, he may lose an arm.
ReplyDeleteA shame about that Muslim helper that might lose his arm. But note the press tried to keep it quiet at first about the shooters. I'm not Jewish but will say that Barb is a fool.
DeleteBarb,
ReplyDeleteYou state that you will never understand why the Israeli response to the attack on Israel by Hamas on October 7th was necessary.
I accept this statement as true.
There are many people who share your point of view. What you don't seem to understand is your point of view is rooted in the notion that Jewish people should not defend themselves. That they should not have a country. That they should not live in security.
You seem to think that they deserve to be attacked and destroyed.
Israel has been attacked over and over again since 1948 and Jews have been attacked throughout history.
When they were unable to defend themselves this almost led to their complete destruction.
That is the definition of genocide the destruction of a people based on their race or ethnicity or religion.
This is the goal of Hamas Hezbollah Iraq and others.
Your expectation that the Israeli people and Jews overall should forgive their attackers and not defend themselves. This Belief could and likely is based on a hatred of Jews.
Peace through weakness is not a winning strategy peace through strength at least presents the possibility of peace.
I posit that the Israelis goal is peace while the goal of its enemies is to destroy Israel and cast the Jews into the sea.
Hamas could have surrendered and sued for peace at any time during the war this option is still available for them to lay down their arms and refrain from future conflict.
My question is why they refuse and refuse peace for their people and the people of Israel.
Clearly they only want peace if it is brought about by the destruction of Israel.
I know you still don't understand it's hard to get past hatred
good points, Franco
DeleteExcellent response. Likely to fall on deaf ears.
DeleteI have a very hard time talking to people about issues in Israel. Not because I do not have an opinion or because nothing will change my point of view, but because of how fraught the conversations are. Most people -- the media included -- do not seem capable of differentiating between Jews, the Jewish People, and Israel.
ReplyDeleteThis is not something that should come as a surprise to anyone as the vast majority of us American's seem to struggle with anything that isn't oversimplified. Make America Great Again is such a great example of that.
It seems hard for people to understand that you can be against Israel and not be Anti-Semitic... even if you are a jew.
Maybe because you can't. You can be against Israeli policy. The way I'm against the Trump administration. But if you are against Israel, period, then you ARE anti-Semitic.
DeleteAll the more reason why the Orthodox Jews in Israel shouldn't be fighting to stay out of the army and not want to be recruited into the Israeli army.
ReplyDeleteSeems to me when you are constantly under attack it is hard to see anyone other than enemies. If the majority of attacks would stop the Jewish people might have time to take a breath and sort things out. Individuals are going to do crazy things forever but until entire populations change their attitude not much will get better.
ReplyDeleteSourcing Bienart as her only reference point shows her predetermination of point of view - The fault is obviously with the Jews, they should willingly throw themselves onto the sword to appease the Gazans who, despite being given their own land to govern, still manage to make all it about destroying the Jewish State even at the cost of all their people. Destroying the only Jewish State. The place where 7 million, nearly half, of the Jewish family live. Alongside 2 million Muslims, Christians, Baha'i and others. Jews make up approximately 0.2% (15 Million) of the world population, but seemingly our destruction is the key to happiness and paradise for a significant portion of the population. Have her make that make sense.
ReplyDeleteTell her to go away and dig deeper. Read other sources (Noa Tishbi has some good material), watch Nas Daily (who has a good series this week).
Aargh. People like this make me deeply concerned about the future of humans on this planet.
Yes forgiveness must come. It will be a part of making a lasting peace. Other middle eastern countries have made peace with Israel and each other.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure there has been much in the way of forgiveness.
Forgiveness must be in both directions .
But first peace. Without it forgiveness will never come.