"This was in the beginning of a social change in so many areas," said Black. "It wasn't just civil rights — also women's rights were starting to take shape at that time, I remember we used to do society assignments. We'd go up and ask the women their names, they would always give their husbands' names: Mrs. John So-and-So. When that began to fade away the paper was in the forefront. The paper started asking us, when we took down names, to ask the ladies for their names, not their husband's names. Some of the women were reluctant to do that. Others said, 'Yeah, I'll give you my name. I'm Margaret So-and-So.' Some of the women would talk among themselves, wondering if they dared, and they'd say 'Oh, my husband wouldn't like that...."
I thought of holding onto that, building a story around it. But this is one of those mornings when I'm in transit — heading home after 10 days away — and think its legs are strong enough to stand on its own. A reminder that, if for some guys the whole Me-Too movement seems just too much, that it's a pushback against something, against women not even feeling comfortable withj their own names. A reminder that a married woman couldn't have a credit card without her husband's permission until 1974 and the passage of the Equal Credit Opportunity Act.
I've been around enough to remember that world first hand, although my memory, naturally, has a lighter spin. I was the opinion page editor of the Wheaton Daily Journal, and got a letter signed "Mrs. Pierce Hiscock." Right, I thought, like I'm going to fall for that. The letter was halfway to the garbage can when I thought: you never know... I phoned the number. A lovely older woman answered.
"Is this Mrs. Hiscock?" I asked.
"Yes...." she replied. "It is."
"This is the Wheaton Daily Journal, and we've received your letter."
"Oh good."
"We we like to run it. But, ah, we were wondering if, umm, we could use your first name. What is it?"
"Jane" (or some such thing; it's been 40 years).
"So we'll sign it, 'Mrs. Jane Hiscock.' Would that be all right?"
"That's fine."
You were thoughtful to phone her and ask how she would like to be addressed. It’s a bygone era, but I’m old enough to remember. Ladies wore hats and gloves, men wore a shirt and tie. My, how different it is today.
ReplyDeleteGood info, Mr. S.
ReplyDeleteI remember the discussions in my dorm at Barat College (RIP) in 1974-75 - how important it would be to establish credit in our own name, as married women. We still, most of us, assumed that we would marry, you see, but we anticipated a 5-10 year period of being sophisticated single women, working and being independent. My mother was supportive of, if somewhat confused by, these ideas. My grandmother was just confused...
ReplyDeleteHuh? Speaking as a ‘dude in a dress’, I have no idea what the prior comment meant.
ReplyDeleteWhen my sister and her high school friends started referring to themselves as ‘Ms.’ In the early 70’s, I pretty much snickered and wrote it off as a fashion statement, sort of like hot pants (‘formal’ hot pants were actually popular for homecoming and prom in 1972.) or maxi skirts, either of which looked marvelous paired with suede knee-high boots. My sister’s sense of social justice was limited to whether or not my future brother-in-law made the high school baseball team or not. He didn’t, but he’s still a great brother-in-law over 50 years later. And my sister is doing much better.
But yeah, whether she understood it or not, and it took me a year or so to realize the reality of the situation myself, it was an important issue. Men are referred to as Mr, an all-encompassing title. Women were either Miss or Mrs., indicating they were either married or unwed. Why the distinction, and why should it matter, and why can it still remain an issue to some people 50 years later?
The ad heading today’s EGD presents what was acceptable, everyday attire ( I was going to say ‘dress’, but that would be too punny. Or wouldn’t.) for the average woman. Laura Petri aside, women who wore ‘slacks’ were either unwelcome in many places-church and many restaurants, for two-or, you know…maybe they were those women who liked other women. Capris? Beatniks! Things would quickly change for the boomer generation, but the prohibition on women wearing pants would remain in some places for many years.
At that time, almost all business correspondence was traditionally addressed as ‘Dear Sir’, the Beatles’ ‘Paperback Writer’ not withstanding. ‘To whom it may concern’ was an acceptable alternative, but, really, it almost sounds accusative. At least to someone who has been accused of many things. Several of which I actually did.
Years ago, at the dawn of social media, I knew someone who was denied service because his last name was ‘Adcock’. No way he could convince them that his last name was legit, even back in the day when you could actually talk to a human being who actually answered the phone who actually was stationed in the same area code you were in. Even though, as some baseball fans might remember, Joe Adcock was an All-Star first baseman for the Milwaukee Braves during the 1950s and into the 60s. So it wasn’t an unheard-of name.
CBS execs once sent a memo to producer Carl Reiner that there was to be no more "undercupping" of Laura Petri's pants. They didn't like that the pants showed off the curve of her ass!
DeleteI remembered Joe Adcock right away. One of only four players to hit a home run into the bleachers at the old Polo Grounds, almost 500 feet from home plate. One of the others was Hank Aaron, some years later.
DeleteThe last name of Hiscock may have been somewhat amusing, but there must be quite a few people whose names end in those last four letters...Adcock and Hitchcock are but two examples.
At least the woman's name wasn't like that of the mother of a classmate of mine...Rose Bush. Or Georgia Peach...the sister of somebody I knew who died in Vietnam. Or Amanda Hugginkiss (sorry).
My friend Barbara turned down a marriage proposal from a guy named Charlie Dahl. She was not about to become a Barbie Dahl. She was everything Barbie was not. So she kept her long Polish surname...and stayed single.
In about 1967-68, I went to visit a friend in a Catholic hospital on the north side. I wore slacks and probably a jacket/blazer of some kind - not sloppy, torn jeans. A nun came up to me and would not allow me entrance to the hospital. I explained that I came up from the far south side to visit my ill friend. No dice; she made me leave.
DeleteWhat happened to you is typical...and not surprising at all. My wife spent five miserable years being taught by nuns...first grade through fifth grade. She has plenty of "nun stories." Kneeling on rice as punishment, cleaning up her own vomit...and worse. Those stories make ME want to vomit. And they also make me very angry.
DeleteOne other player who hit a home run into the center field bleachers at the Polo Grounds (against the Mets) was a young Cubs outfielder who didn’t seem to be going anywhere, but the Cardinals needed a left-handed hitting outfielder. The Cubs had swindled them out of two top-flight pitchers (Larry Jackson and Lindy McDaniel) in exchange for an aging George Altman the previous year, so what the heck. The Cards were dangling a genuine 20 game winner in exchange for a weak defensive outfielder who had some speed but in his 3rd big league season just didn’t look like his career was going anywhere. Thus, Ernie Broglio for Lou Brock, with a couple of players thrown in on each side.
DeleteAnd that’s the rest of the story.
The four who hit homers into those bleachers:
Delete* Luke Easter, Homestead Grays (Negro League), 1948
* Joe Adcock, Milwaukee Braves, 1953
* Lou Brock, Chicago Cubs, 1962
* Hank Aaron, Milwaukee Braves, 1962
Note: Brock and Aaron did it on successive days.
There must have been a strong wind blowing out to center field.
This "Mr. & Mrs. 'Male First Name' Then Last Name" still exists today. In early March of this year I made an annual donation to WTTW in order to access "Passport." I made the annual donation using a credit card in my female name using my email address, but I included my husband's first name on the registration form as "Spouse." Email confirmations of my annual donation as well as the link to access "Passport" were addressed to me, Sandra (not Ms. despite selecting "Ms." on the registration form), at my email address. However, all subsequent USPS snail mail such as WTTW's monthly publication "The Guide" are addressed to "Mr. and Mrs. 'Spouse's First Name' Then Our Last Name"...not to "Sandra and 'Spouse's 1st Name' Last Name." How do you like them apples?!!! I made the annual donation in my name, however, prim & proper WTTW addresses mail to "Mr. and Mrs. Male First Name." Ha...some things never change! Respectfully submitted, Sandra
DeleteWe've contributed to WTTW for a long time. Not always renewing promptly, thus inadvertently using different variations of our names when finally getting around to it. We get a lot -- an annoying amount -- of mail from them, and it can be addressed a variety of ways, depending on what list they're using.
DeleteSometimes I like to use a version of my name that I never use otherwise on some subscription or something -- just to see what junk mail starts showing up with that name, so that I can determine who sold their mailing lists!
I am speaking specifically about snail mail from only WTTW when I stated they use the old-timey "Mr. and Mrs. Male 1st Name then Last Name" despite me being the one to make the donation in my name using my credit card (not a shared credit card with my husband) but also including my husband's name as "Spouse." This is not a case of multiple donations using different variations of names at different times, etc. because WTTW is specifically addressing mail to "Mr. and Mrs. Male First Name" when the Mr. in this case had nothing to do with the donation.
DeleteI don't doubt the validity of your experience, and I'm sure it's annoying. It's just confusing to me because of the snail mail we get from WTTW.
DeleteYears ago, we'd get the Mr. and Mrs., but we somehow managed to get them to switch so that, more recently, we've gotten several variations closer to what we want. I've never wanted Mr. on anything. Over the last few years, they've used "John and Mary Smith," "Mary and John Smith," "Mary C. and John Smith," and, I don't know why, but the current version is "John Smith and Mary Smith."
This is primarily significant to us because "Mary and John Smith" is what we'd like on the free return-address labels they send out! : )
When I bought my first house, in 1979, the deed gave my name (there was no husband) followed by the word “Spinster.” I assume a single man’s deed just said his name. His marital status would have been if no consequence because he was a man. Lots to unpack there
ReplyDeleteI was in a real estate-adjacent field for many years, starting not long after you bought your house. A never-married man would have been designated as a “bachelor.” Different feeling to that, right? Later it became “single, never married.” Marital status would be specified regardless of gender because of homestead rights for spouses, if any.
DeleteWe purchased our first house before we were married...the purchasers were me, "a bachelor", and my girlfriend (now wife), "a spinster".
DeleteThis wording has since been changed in standard real estate contracts to eliminate the reference to marital status.
I graduated from college in 1967. Moved to Chicago. Got a job. Rented an apartment. Opened a bank account. Got a credit card or two (or seven). Bought a new car. All in my own name. No husband. No one asked my dad to cosign. 56 years later, everything is still in my own name (granted, it's my father's last name). The lesson for women: stay single. If you do marry, keep your finances separate.
ReplyDeleteMy kid sister graduated in '73. Last week, she celebrated her 48th wedding anniversary. She has NEVER used her married last name, and she has used "Ms." since it began in the 70s.
DeleteOn the other hoof, her daughter...my gay feminist niece ...took her father's last name immediately, and has always used it. Go figure. Sometimes the apple doesn't always fall near the tree. Or maybe it's a legal issue. I'm not a lawyer. I don't even play one online.
Neil, I love your writing. I never comment. The kicker that got me to weigh in today was to learn that you once worked for the Wheaton Daily Journal, a newspaper that I delivered as a child. Such memories, that kids of today will never have!
ReplyDeleteYour topic struck home as well. This, of course, was in the pre- Me Too era, which wasn't that long ago. The bar She-nannigans on Division is spelled that way because they used female bartenders when they opened in 1970, which at that time was illegal in Chicago. A court battle followed, and in 1974 the law was changed, opening the door to Hooters everywhere.
As a high-schooler in 1979 I wanted to be a pharmacist, and was advised to meet with someone in that field to learn more. Although shy, I arranged to meet with the owner of Andy's Wheaton Pharmacy (which had been selling me codeine cough syrup, with a note from Mom, of course, for years. My, how times have changed!). He took my meeting, and when I finally got into his office he sat across his desk from me and said "First of all, you have no business taking a job away from a man. Your job is to make babies." Then he turned his back on me until I left his office with tears forming.
My point is that this was not that long ago, and slopes can be awfully slippery. We can never go back. On anything. Thanks for the memories, and the next time a ten year old girl shows up at your house alone, asking for money, she might just be "collecting" for the Wheaton Daily Journal! :)
A few years back I was walking in the neighborhood, past a beautiful historic Catholic Church. They had just announced that they were tearing it down to build a new one, mainly because their lone priest didn't want to do multiple services for the growing congregation. I struck up a conversation with a middle aged woman who worked at the church complex. I told her that I could save the church and millions of dollars. Since the problem could be solved with more priests, just allow women to be priests I told her. She reacted as if I had set her hair on fire. "Oh no! The church isn't ready for that. The disciples were all men. No. I can't imagine women priests". She was shaking. I wanted to weep for her.
ReplyDeleteThe disciples were all Jewish, too. For some mysterious reason, that distinction doesn't seem to matter...
DeleteI graduated in 1989 from high school. I can still remember my mother signing all my permission slips to attend this or that function outside of school during school hours as "Mrs. Walter Werst." I took enough notice of it then when I began having my buddy sign the permission slips, I made sure he would sign it the exact same way. I always told Mom about the trips I just probably felt it was funny to have my friend sign.
ReplyDeleteDuring my senior year of high school my friend sign the permission slip and I tried to hand it back in immediately. If my memory is correct, I tried to hand in the permission slip before he was finished handing them out to the rest of the class. My teacher, who was also our cross-country coach, was chuckling when he told me I needed to wait at least until the next day to make it seem somewhat plausible. I have not thought about that for a long time, and it brought a smile to my face. Thank you. I need to call my high school friend and remind him of that story. It is particularly funny because he is a prosecutor now.
I was a reporter at the Sun-Times in the 1970s. Our business editor, Ed Darby, sent a female reporter, Carole Foryst, to cover a speech at one of the downtown clubs. The club refused to admit her – she was the wrong gender for the club. In the next morning's edition, the refusal became the story. The club changed its policy.
ReplyDeleteSo in 1976, I lived near Senn High, and frequented a tiny little bar on Ridge named, I believe, "Thumper's." I'd stop there every night before heading to my job at the Bulk Mail Center near Harlem. The place was crammed to the gills with 99% men, but the female barkeep managed to mostly keep the clientele in line. This was the winter it hardly ever got above zero; in fact, it was often 20 below or colder. One time I brought in my guitar and squeezed myself into a corner where the bar itself met the plate glass window, and I serenaded the bartender with my latest, "Lady Bartender." Made her laugh. Very dumb song, but a good memory.
ReplyDeleteOne episode from a few years ago in the never-ending series of insurance commercials featuring "Flo" is a brilliant spoof of the subordinate role of women in the era we're discussing here. The last line is spoken by the voiceover announcer in the most perfect, befuddled delivery possible. I was able to find it on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJl45ADxEKM
ReplyDeleteI believe prior to 1974 married women *could * get a credit card without their husband’s permission but banks could refuse to give them.
ReplyDeleteFYI, Rev. Hiscock married Wilma Lois Andrews and at least one of their children adopted a different last name.
ReplyDeleteI have three daughters who were born in 1983, 85 and 87. They all played softball in the local park league which was run by Dads (no women coaches at that time) from the neighborhood. Guys that I knew. There were boys teams too. After a few
ReplyDeleteyears as an assistant, I became a head coach. On uniform pickup day I went to the fieldhouse to pick ours up. Pants, shirts and hats. I got in line behind some other Dads/coaches and when it was my turn I was asked what team I had. The Flames I said. He says "oh sorry the girls teams are after the boys. So I mentally counted to ten, didn't get past three and said F--- that noise. My team members families pay the same as the boys, give me the uniforms or there WILL be a problem. But, but,but he says, I say but nothing. Give me the effing uniforms or you might be wearing this table. I got them in a hurry. This was 1980 or 81. Still makes my blood boil.
Oh, we could go on with this forever! Another column, Neil?
ReplyDeleteAnother column? Certainly. About changing gender roles? As material and circumstances dictate. Though this I've-got-this-scrap-let's-use-it post certainly outshined yesterday's on-page-two-in-the-Sun-Times column.
DeleteLove all these great comments-I just checked, but my Saks credit card still has : Mrs. Theodore J. Grabbe as my name-never bothered to change it as it always kind of amused me.
ReplyDeleteI'm a Gen-Xer (born in the min-1960s), and as far back as I can can remember, my mother would always sign anything official--including school permission slips--as "Mrs. Eugene K, Sr." It always confused and eventually angered me, even as a very young boy. "Why don't you sign your own name?" "But this IS my own name." "No, it isn't!" I can't recall when she eventually started using her own given name when providing her signature, though I do recall feeling a sense of relief and pride when she switched. The practice just seemed demeaning, even to five year-old me. But she felt had been doing "correctly" as she was raised to do, sadly.
ReplyDeleteWell, she *was* doing it as she had been taught. That was proper etiquette at the time; it's not like she was an outlier. As these comments indicate, there was a lot of demeaning treatment of women going around...
DeleteI recall being in my teens or twenties and addressing mail to a particular aunt, who had probably been born before WWI. Even though her husband had been dead for years, I still put Mrs. (his name), because that was what she wanted. It felt very weird to me, but I figured the proper course was to address people as they wanted to be addressed.